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property of the document at the url http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/HTTP-URI2.html is wrong, because you probably copy/pasted it 17:17:00 <leobard> timbl: about the TAG - I meant the Technical Architecture Group's solution to the identification issues, last year 17:17:26 <leobard> basically, what came out was that URIs of documents should be retrievable (200) 17:17:51 <leobard> I am writing up something for the Nepomuk project on how to identify concepts in RDF. 17:18:10 <timbl> By the way, if looking for timbl typos is like shooting fish in a barrel. :-/ 17:18:31 <danja> hadn't noticed ;-) 17:19:19 <leobard> yes, its ok. Just give us your password on the W3C box, we will fix them in a community effort 17:19:23 <dajobe> heh 17:19:33 <timbl> I just spellchecked HTTP-URI and HTTP-URI2, found lots of things. Apologies to readers. 17:19:45 <dajobe> that's certainly a novel approach to web architecture - put it on a wiki 17:20:02 <timbl> leobard, Ah , oK, abot HTTP Range 14 17:20:28 <timbl> esw is not a web architecture wiki? 17:21:03 <timbl> leobard: The essential of what the TAG decided, as a bit a compromise in a way, but one which works well I think, was this. 17:21:24 <dajobe> true, I guess things like uri schemes only live there now... 17:21:29 <timbl> If you see an HTTP URI you can't assume that it identifies a document (strictly, information resource) 17:21:44 <timbl> so that people can use them (without hashes) to identify cars. 17:22:21 <timbl> However, if your server serves up 200 OK to an HTTP request, thna means "The URI does identify a document, and here is a digital representaton of its content". 17:22:37 <timbl> So if you use HTTP URIs for other things, then you must return a 303 See Also, 17:23:15 <timbl> which means "I can't give you the bits of a rereentatoin of this, but here is a DIFFERENT resource whose contents may help you in your quest" 17:23:41 <leobard> just a sec, I make an example 17:23:48 <timbl> ok 17:24:41 <leobard> so this states that timbl has written the note: 17:24:45 <leobard> <http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/HTTP-URI2.html> dc:author <http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/card#i>. 17:25:08 <timbl> yes 17:25:14 <leobard> note that I already fucked it up: the first uri returns 200, the second I don't know 17:25:34 <leobard> hm, or perhaps put another way: apache has written the document to me 17:25:45 <timbl> The second URI has a hash, which is another way of making a URI for a something which doesn't ahve t be a document. 17:26:03 <leobard> but the document written by you is identified with some hash: http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/HTTP-URI2.html# 17:26:36 <timbl> The hash architecture is that a hash links the URI of a document and a local identifier within that document to make a global URI for the thing identified by the local identifier within the document. 17:27:29 <leobard> yes, thats clear. 17:27:45 <leobard> I have some other problem, well, I will continue writing the exact problem up, with concise examples .. this will take a while. 17:27:54 <timbl> The web arhitecture has always been that to redererence a URI with a hash, you deref everything up to the hash (the document URI) and then learn from the document about the thing identifierd by the loacl ID 17:28:36 <timbl> ?? """leobard: but the document written by you is identified with some hash: http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/HTTP-URI2.html#""" no, the document is not identified by that, but by the URI without a hash. 17:29:07 <leobard> ok, point 17:31:21 <Wikier> Wikier has joined #swig 17:31:39 <leobard> I am preparing something together with Max Völkel, the guy that is close to the Semantic Mediawiki people. I hope to get a longer document with examples and a thouroug literature review together. 17:31:54 <leobard> Will come back with end later this week, also I am at ISWC2006 17:32:22 <jargonjustin> jargonjustin has joined #swig 17:32:53 <timbl> Semantic Mediawiki does it right, I think , using HTTP 303s. 17:33:42 <timbl> Examples of URIs which do a 303 redirect (try them in the tabulator) include 17:33:45 <timbl> ... http://id.ecs.soton.ac.uk/person/1650 17:35:42 <timbl> ... http://dig.csail.mit.edu/People/RRS 17:35:55 <leobard> ah, ok. Now I see. the id server redirects to a http rep 17:36:02 <leobard> I meant HTML rep 17:36:12 <timbl> Ah, no, semantic mediawiki .. at least Ontoworld does a 301 17:36:23 <leobard> and this contains a written note: 17:36:23 <leobard> Person URI: http://id.ecs.soton.ac.uk/person/1650 17:36:23 <leobard> Role URI: http://id.ecs.soton.ac.uk/role/1650 17:36:23 <leobard> Person RDF: http://rdf.ecs.soton.ac.uk/person/1650 17:36:23 <leobard> Role RDF: http://rdf.ecs.soton.ac.uk/role/1650 17:36:50 <leobard> which is all written here: http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/people/wh 17:37:09 <timbl> * timbl notes <http://wiki.ontoworld.org/index.php/_Martin_Hepp> Redirected: 301 to <http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Martin_Hepp> 17:37:17 <leobard> because I wondered how we can make a 'social' protocol that will allow us to find the correct URI identifying the concept of a person from looking at the website of the person 17:37:22 <timbl> Ah, leobard, that is because you didn't ask fro RDF. 17:37:44 <leobard> yes, I just entered it into a browser. 17:37:50 <timbl> If you do an Accept: application/rdf+xml then it will take you to RDF 17:38:12 <leobard> My fear was, that once we start using these 303 URIs inside RDF, stating things like "x hasAuthor y", they won't be "clickable" anymore 17:38:17 <leobard> but through the redirect, it works 17:38:32 <timbl> Yes. 17:38:40 <leobard> clever trick you came up with, and thanks for explaining, I will include it in my doc. 17:39:02 <timbl> The TAG came up withe the clever trick after many many months of deliberation!! 17:39:26 <timbl> and discussion in www-tag and elsewhere in great depth. 17:40:05 <timbl> leobard, please do include the correct recipes (303 or hash) in your doc, as the words needs to be spread around, many people haven't got it yet. 17:42:05 <leobard> timbl: do you have any document on that? I could reproduce it based on the example from ECS but any TAG note would help 17:42:09 <leobard> logger pointer 17:42:28 <timbl> logger, pointer? 17:42:28 <timbl> See http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2006-10-29#T17-42-28 17:43:16 <leobard> thx for the syntax :-) 17:43:31 <leobard> is there a writeup of the approach with 303 and the content negotiation? 17:44:41 <timbl> There is the email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Jun/0039.html 17:45:19 <timbl> There is a document by the Sem Web Best Practcies group which explsin how to set up Apache to do a 303 17:45:39 <timbl> Note when writing RDF or N3 by hand, the hash method works much more simply 17:47:15 <leobard> by hand, you mean to just use a plain '#' to reference the current doc, I assuem 17:48:09 <timbl> The # i sonly used to refer to something from outside the document normally 17:48:41 <leobard> oh, I have to stop now, I am too fat sitting around all day, have to go running with my wife :-) 17:48:44 <timbl> In XML you say rdf:id="tbl" or you can say rdf:about="#tbl" 17:48:57 <timbl> In N3 you just use the defualt namespace. 17:49:03 <timbl> Have a good run 17:49:08 <leobard> I will continue tomorrow, during worktime, finally something useful to do at the office 17:49:18 <timbl> * timbl forgets where in the world leobard is based 17:49:26 <leobard> thanks for all the useful pointers, they help me a lot 17:49:28 <leobard> sec. 17:49:32 <timbl> welcome 17:50:06 <leobard> http://beta.plazes.com/plaze/1d28f6bf2bb33ddf30a049aafe2f097d 17:50:09 <dc_swig> C: http://beta.plazes.com/plaze/1d28f6bf2bb33ddf30a049aafe2f097d from leobard 17:50:19 <leobard> C:|leobards whereabouts 17:50:20 <dc_swig> Titled item C. 17:51:58 <timbl> Well, around BED we have windy running conditions. leaves ripped off the trees and swirling all over in drifts. 17:52:33 <leobard> * leobard will drive to fitness center and watch TV while running or listening to iPod, which is chicken but ok 17:52:42 <leobard> and its 19:00 and dark here 17:53:56 <timbl> enjoy anyway 17:54:15 <leobard> thx! 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